Last night, I attended a district gathering of our denominational leadership (i.e., pastors and church leaders). I realized while driving into the parking lot that it had been over 9 years since I last attended one of these Fall Leadership Conferences. Most of my participation in our denomination for the past decade had revolved around youth or college ministry along with an occasional project involvement in things like missions or cultural diversity [go figure 
]. Therefore, I really never got to sit in too many large scale leadership meetings with pastors, especially senior pastors.
When I came to this stark realization, I kind of got excited. At that moment, I began to anticipate what the evening might be like. My imagination stirred within me the possible scenarios of change (e.g., types of speakers, creativity of message using new communication tools, refined philosophy of ministry and culture, music, design elements, diversity and multi-generational presence, etc.). My curiosity was growing until I actually entered the space (in this case, a church).
To me, it felt like I had entered a time machine that sent me back to the 90’s. Everything from the music to the types of communal interaction/invitation to the spiritual praxis resembled much of what I remembered about this gathering from a decade ago. [Side Note: For those of you who do not know, I belong to a Pentecostal/Charismatic heritage.] Most of the prayers, prophetic words, and spiritual languages sounded really similar to what I heard growing up. In addition, I ended up standing near a guy who really worked the aisles during the worship for his fairly violent dance routine. I felt so out of place at so many different levels last night. The troubling part was that there was a time in my life where such experiences really inspired and moved me.
This really got me thinking a lot about the noticeable difference between my experience of this kind of Christianity growing up and the way I currently live out my faith. There was no doubt that something shifted deeply in me during the past 9 years. It was almost as if I had changed religions. I began to ask myself some of the following kinds of questions:
- Am I evolving in my faith or devolving and slipping away? Could I have fallen off the edge?
- If my current view of faith is closer to the truth, what in the world was I practicing years ago?
- Do I have the same religion as other standing next to me but with a different expression(s)?
- Are expressions totally distinct from doctrine? If not, has my theology changed that much?
- Am I really charismatic/pentecostal? If so, why (beyond just theology)?
- Is there a label that doesn’t draw such distinct lines of praxis in Christianity?
- Am I changing my religion or is my religion changing me? Both? Neither?
- Am I crazy? (Don’t answer this one.)
Please keep in mind that I love the people in our denomination [most of them ]. This is not meant to be a criticism about them (my friends) or their practices. I am simply pointing out how much I have changed over the last decade in contrast to others present at the gathering last night. This knowledge is making me uneasy and yet I feel that it is necessary in my overall journey to process my thoughts about my faith.
People say that change is inevitable and should be expected…I know that this includes religion…It’s just difficult to distinguish evolution from compromise.
Any thoughts? Can you relate to my struggles?
This post is tagged Changing Religion, Doubts, Faith, God, Processing Thoughts, Religious Choices
32 Comments
First off, it’s been a while since I’ve commented on one if your posts, let alone blogged my own thoughts. As I type, I’m moved to restart.
Charles, this is all too familiar to me. I, too, have felt stuck in this thing we call Christianity.
In some ways, I still do.
And here’s what happened. Jesus slapped the Pharisees with the reality that their religiosity defined their relationship with God. They missed the whole point of truly experiencing God in the midst of all the laws. And I think, similarly, the routines and the ideal image of what a “Christian” ought to look like put me in this Pharisee-like mentality. I knew all the right things to say and all the right things to do. But I was missing something.
But don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying our Pentecostal/Charasmatic backgrounds are a sham. I’m just saying I let the rich traditions of my “religion” and denomination define my relationship with God, rather than my relationship with God define every aspect of my life; including religion.
Do I want to leave my denomination? Mmmm…not necessarily. But if the requirement was for all of us to go back to the 90s, then I’m outta here.
Peace be with you…(and also with you).
Charles,
I feel the exact same way. I grew up unchurched, got save in and AG youth camp and ended up planting a Foursquare Church. But when I would do all the leadership events I felt as if it was another world. I hate that feeling.
Found your blog a few weeks ago and I really enjoy it. I’m a church planter in Austin and also starting a non-profit: http://www.helpendlocalpoverty.com
Keep up the good work.
Shalom
Thanks for note Derrick…good to see you back here
You really need to start blogging again. You know…the 90’s were pretty cool…haha
Chris, I’m so glad to meet you virtually. I checked out your site. I really like the direction you are moving things. I’d love to connect via phone sometime to listen to what you are up to. Let me know if you are interested. My email is connectwithcharles@gmail.com
Also, I was wondering if you had a chance to see the non-profit I help run called JustOne (http://www.just4one.org). We focus on poverty, orphans, and human trafficking.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Those are some challenging questions, Charles — particularly, “If my current view of faith is closer to the truth, what in the world was I practicing years ago?” I have yet to pin down a concrete answer to this question for myself. I think the question may be more valuable than any answer I come up with.
If I’m honest with myself, I have to take the role of language (and its limits) into account. I think that as we get older, our ability to verbally express thoughts, feelings, and emotions changes greatly because our vocabulary improves. I think the same can be said of spiritual expression. Within Christianity (and the other religions of the world) there are myriad ways of expressing one’s experience of the divine. It goes beyond simple verbal articulation, because it involves ritual, bodily movements and postures, and the adherence to exoteric rules and regulations (but not always). It only makes sense that as one’s spirituality grows and deepens, the expression of their view(s) may change as well. To sum it up, it is possible that your current view and way of expressing it may be more articulate than it was before. Whether or not your more articulate view is more ‘true’ is more difficult to determine.
Thanks for posting on such a great and relevant topic.
Also, I like the new website layout. I haven’t visited in a while, and I like what you’ve done with the place.
Very good post! I also really liked what Derrick Engoy had to say especially…
“I’m just saying I let the rich traditions of my “religion” and denomination define my relationship with God, rather than my relationship with God define every aspect of my life; including religion.”
I’ve been there and back a couple of times while on this journey and I’ve heard all the arguments for staying, leaving, stopping, switching etc. Everybody has a case to make about why they are in or where they are at – but I’ve heard it said that the name above the marque, usually points to where the group or denomination has simply stopped growing.
We humans, let alone Christians, don’t particularly like change… The questions you asked yourself are valid and I will ask them to myself as well. In fact, we would be wise to cut and paste these on our office walls so as to ask ourselves them often.
Bless you
Hey Charles. Great thoughts/questions that really resonate as well as challenge me. I’ve been wrestling through similar things. Looking back at some of my “roots” I often feel like I’ve moved on or grown up. Although I don’t come from a similar background/tradition I was deeply affected by that “third wave” as theologians call it and it gave shape to who I am today. I don’t think what I experienced was a bad thing. I admit that at times my religious experience then was much more personal and emotional where nowadays my experience is more cognitive. I could consider myself a trans-denominationalist – a struggling reformed-methodist-baptist-roman catholic according to my faith journey.
I think what had happened as a Christ follower was that I kept on following the Holy Spirit and that’s what brings us closer to the truth (Jn 16:13). Following that Spirit and working with what God has revealed to us works against our best sensibilities and inclinations, even against doctrines and praxis so that perhaps God can produce something new in and through me – a new humanity (Eph 2:15). I think that’s where the change happens.
If it smells like Holy Spirit. . . I go in faith.
Hey Charles,
Well, I’ve been a lurker on your Blog for far too long. I attended your classes and you spoke at my summer camp this year
I also went to this conference that you wrote about, and had a very similar experiance-I attended the conference in the Northwest.
I was excited to see what new things were going to happen…I’m not sure about your conference, but ours was labeled Generation Next and I had assumed we would spend time talking about up and comming generations, etc…
I was excited at the possibilities of speakers, and ministries (like JustOne), etc…only to have a similar experiance.
There was nothing about an upcomming generation…and nothing to hold the attention of my generation.
I also began asking my self questions like:
Am I part of community of people who are focused on keeping what they have rather than who they could be?
Where is the life…the youthfulness I remembered having?
Am I just too “young” minded to like this?
For me, luckily, four District Supervisor had a meeting with all of us…and asked our opinion. I at 28, was probably the youngest pastor in the room…and I told him what I thought, including if they want to keep my generation or build this upcomming one, things would have to change.
I felt like I had a voice for a moment, but I doubt anything will happen
So, I’m back to the same questions as you-especially “Am I changing my religion, or is my religion changing me.”
Great question.
I have loved our denomination and all the people and supports it has, but I’m wondering what they are or will offer this generation
Just wanted to let you know that you weren’t alone in your musings…and that I’m thinking along those same lines. Thank you for blogging and sharing what you are thinking.
Chris
Charles, you think it’s bad to be in the 90’s? . Come to the Brethren district conference with me in two weeks and we’ll be in the real 90’s.. the 1790’s.
(It’s in Fresno and I’m riding the buggy, so I’m leaving tomorrow. Messenger me.)
I totally was into church in the 90s. outward expression, speaking in tongues, worship music, words of knowledge. (Not to say any of that is bad). But when I step back into that same kind of church, yes, I feel uncomfortable. I will never go back to how I was.
You can’t grow without changing. So if one has not changed–I don’t think one has grown.
I think there’s something good that the charismatic/pentecostal church has tapped into: The exuberance, the dancing, the gifts of the holy spirit. I think that those are good things to be excited about. When I see people who are into this I see them kind of as spiritual babies. (I know this can be offensive!) I believe in prophecy, healing, and words of knowledge but this “90s church” atmosphere seems like a non-trustworthy place for it. I’ve seen and heard of more viable sources for supernatural happenings, where people really understand what’s going on and where people are really listening to God. But I’m all for learning through practicing, so have at it pentecostal/charismatic church! Practice, learn, grow, change, and balance out (as I hope to balance out).
I was eight. Sunday church service was taking place at a local park for “Annual Picnic Sunday.” I remember rolling down what seemed like a giant hill when a stern voice and firm hands put an end to my typical Sunday behavior. I spent my childhood years giving hell to Sunday school volunteers every week. Until I hit my adolescent years, church to me was one big playground. For a recent immigrant child living in a crammed 1 bedroom apartment in Hollywood, wide open spaces at church were my only chance to run, roam and raise a raucous. I am sure I was a nuisance to the service. I’m sure I’ve bothered many people in expressions of worship…but personally for me, that season in my life was when my belief and trust in God was the most genuine.
As I recollect back to my teenage, young adult, newlywed and fatherhood times of my life, I realize my values in friends, family, work, church and life have evolved. Late night talks with my buddies have evolved to late night vigil at a bedside of my children as they lay sick. Was the friendship with my buddies worthless? Was hours of whispering “sweet nothings” pointless? I wonder how I would feel about life in the next season?
I believe that who we were in the past makes us who we are today….without walking through the bends and hills of our journey we would never gain perspective we have today. I didn’t always enjoy the road I’ve traveled. But looking back, it wasn’t so bad. I am happy to be on the road I’m on now but past doesn’t make me grimace with pain. It makes me smile with nostalgic fondness.
Charles,
I thought it was interesting that you used the word “refined” in the second paragraph of your post to describe the kinds of change you were anticipating for the leadership meeting. It seems that it would have been more fitting to apply the term to your own theology and praxis. If your grasp on the “truth” has become more secure over the years, I would hope that your theology and practices would be informed as a result – and it seems thay have been. Perhaps you can attribute your discomfort to your own progress. I could be wrong, but I doubt that a person who had “fallen of the cliff” or devolved would seriously make the effort you have to self-deliberate.
The term “religion” inherently includes both theology/doctrine and praxis…but the question is to what extent a particular religion can accommodate variance. If Pentecostals and Mennonites can both be called Christians, it would seem that the religion of Christianity can accommodate some different theologies and practices.
I grew up in a Pentecostal church, but it was much, much more conservative than what I have since been exposed to (esp. in Southern California). Violent dancing and the use of tongues in service would definitely not be acceptable in the church of my childhood. Though I was not accustomed to such expressions, I have had to develop my own convictions since my exposure to hyper-Pentecostalism. I would argue that one could still call themselves Pentecostal/charismatic and not practice the kinds of things that made you feel out of place at the meeting. Pentecostalism is no more static than the individuals who hold to it.
I hope that our progress as disciples, learners, theologians, and practitioners influences our sometimes nebulous systems of belief. As I’m sure you have experienced, one person’s encounter with the truth will probably not be able to drastically change the church on an immediate basis. But it is exciting to think about the changes that will happen through our disciples and children as a result of the “refined” theology and praxis of our day.
Thanks everyone for your thoughts…
Jackson, I do agree with you that a portion of this may be linked to my ability to articulate my experience better. Nevertheless, I’m sure you would agree that we are speaking of something that is more than linguistics. Language is limited, but I don’t want to ignore metaphysics in this case.
W. Adam, thanks for your honest interaction with the content. I agree with your assessment that humanity may not particularly like change. Also, interesting not about the marque.
LT, love your thoughts. I think in many ways I am like you. Btw, you have to listen to Phyllis Tickle’s talk from Youth Specialties (Sacramento). I think she describes really well the present state of the church and people like us who can fit simultaneously into numerous categories of thought and yet not be defined. How does the Holy Spirit smell? Good, I hope
Chris, I’m so glad you chimed in on this. I can definitely resonate with the kind of experience you had. I still (like you) want to cling to hope. I know God is up to something…It’s just that I usually feel like the fish out of water.
Phillip, shame on you. You had me laughing out loud during one of our sessions. So funny…my brethren.
Lydia, I love your posture and heart towards this and I hope to be as optimistic as you.
Ted, to what do I owe this great honor?
I agree Ted…I definitely don’t want to diminish what I experienced (nor uplift it too much as well). I was just noting how different things had become. You should write more often (i.e., your blog).
JR, thanks for your helpful notes. As you mentioned, my own progress may have definitely contributed to my discomfort. I suppose I needed a moment to compare my past with my present. In addition, I agree with your articulation of the limits of labeling. Btw, I really like how you think…Please continue to leave comments on my blog. Thanks!
Hey Charles,
I TOTALLY resonate with your comments. I’m heading towards a district conference in the same denomination this weekend in the Midwest. I, too, have a hope that not all is lost. I just hope we’re not too late to relevantly reach this generation.
I’m so thankful to read the comments from you and others that I am not alone in my thoughts and feelings. Thanks for the great post and providing a place for this discussion.
Thanks Shawn…man, you have to go out to Colorado? Aren’t you in SD?
Just to give you a heads up…there isn’t much discussion about the next generation (other than one of the workshops on youth). I personally don’t think this lack of attention was anything intentional by our denominational leadership. I know they definitely care about the “next generation”…no doubt there. I think it’s just one of those things that get overlooked subconsciously sometimes.
The majority of the conversations were about district restructuring, our current crises in America, and the overall future of the denomination. There were brief mentionings of the next generation, but scattered at best (and definitely not conversational).
I really like our denomination…it’s just that even though I have been involved at multiple levels, I still feel a little bit like a misfit. I don’t know anymore if it’s the organization or just me.
Hey Charles,
Thanks for the reply. I do agree that we are speaking of something that is more than linguistics. By comparing linguistics with religious practice, I was hoping to express the opinion that a change in practice is not always an epistemological issue. You may be able to draw some doctrinal distinctions between yourself and others based on certain types of expression. However, in my opinion, it’s incredibly difficult (if not impossible) to decipher whose view is more ‘right’ or ‘true’ based on one’s expression/articulation of faith.
Again, great topic. Thanks for posting the discussion.
JR said, “I doubt that a person who had “fallen of the cliff” or devolved would seriously make the effort you have to self-deliberate.”
Totally, JR. Also, Charles, you said, “It’s just difficult to distinguish evolution from compromise.” Forgive me, but with the gap you describe between your religion now and the one you practiced years ago, it’s hard to believe that the Great Teacher would have let you “compromise” this far. Certainly you believe you’ve been following the Lord during these years.
—————————————-
Those are astute questions, Charles. I like when Jackson said, “I think the question[s] may be more valuable than any answer I come up with.”
The hard part for me, when seeing that people still hold the beliefs and praxis that I had years ago, is letting those people know why I’ve changed. “Well, I used to be where you are, but I’ve grown (and you haven’t). I’ve evolved. I used to hold those beliefs when I was less mature…” Isn’t that horrible?
It would be much easier to just avoid such discussion with those who haven’t changed like we have. But it’s important for us to have those conversations…
I am looking for some idea and stumble upon your posting
decide to wish you Thanks. Eugene
This seems to be the cry of the emerging generation..
I realized that I am a theological Frankenstein.
I can identify with what you’re saying.. Great entry.
Thanks for your honest post, Charles. Derrick turned me on to it yesterday. I’ve actually been on a similar journey. Only the realization of the shifting in my soul didn’t happen in a big public gathering. It happened in my “quiet time”. Nearly a couple years ago, I just hit a wall in my normal “devotional” times with the Lord. At the time, I think I was doing the Life Journals that New Hope Oahu had made so popular. And things were going along fine for a season (about three years off and on). But when I hit the wall, I remember feeling like I was doing devotions to crank out a message someday. And I struggled to find a way of “being with God” that was nurturing to my soul. I tried resorting to others methods of prayer, ones that had been modeled for me in my Pentecostal upbringing. But nothing stuck. I was so bothered by this feeling of “lostness” and marked lack of desire for God that I sought out a spiritual director. To make a long story short (a story that is still being written), I found myself asking some of the same questions, and often feeling like a hypocritical Pentecostal. I questioned what part of my life, ministry philosophy and ministry practice was really Pentecostal, because I found myself not engaging in the traditional Pentecostal practices as much.
In hindsight, I believe that God was beginning to shift my theological and ministry paradigms…a process that I believe I am still in today. But the shift began with my inner life. And my questioning, and my profound reflection on my life’s story, led me to embrace a theology of remembrance more than ever…that the things God had done in my life over the years were very purposeful and preparatory. But now, he was bringing me to the threshold of a new stage in my development. And like the Israelites on the plains of the Jordan were commanded to remember their wilderness journey as they looked over into the promised land, I found tremendous value in remembering the relationships, religious experiences, as well as the lessons, and core convictions that God had etched into my soul through those events. In a real sense, they have made me who I am today.
Yet at the same time, I am experiencing a shift…a transition in my soul…a mini-soul-movement that I have come to accept as a God-thing. I cannot fully put words to it, but I know the shifting has something to do with why I don’t give altar calls the same way I used to (if at all), why I don’t emphasize tongues as much as I used to, and why I don’t do the Life Journal anymore. I’m learning that my greatest quest is a quest for God, and that quest had led me to find my heart, and as I’ve traversed that path, I found myself in a stream that wasn’t quite the “stream” I grew up in. Am I deep enough into it to make me want to leave my (our) denominational tradition? Not yet.
But the more I “lean into” the turn that is taking place in me, the more I am discovering the beauty and depth of what God is working in me. And it starts to feel more like my “relationship with God” is indeed shaping all the other aspects of my life (thanks Derrick). I think all the shifting we’re talking about as well as all the questions that arise in our hearts when we sense the “discontinuity” of where we are compared to our present context…all of this has something to do with God shaping in us a life message that can only be demonstrated uniquely through us.
OK, I’m rambling. But your post was thought-provoking, and connected with my own journey of the past couple years. Thanks for hearing me out.
Thanks guys for your notes. Love the conversation here.
Ken, I really like your theology of remembrance idea…what does that mean? (Maybe I don’t like it yet…haha).
I too was at the conference.
Charles, you are not alone in your questions-in fact my husband and I continue to spend hours exploring our own views and experiences in light of our education and affiliations. We have often felt very alone when asking the hard questions, but they must be asked. Our leaders must also be asked, what’s up and are we as a movement really evolving culturally? My hope ( and i really don’t want to lose hope) is that as a denomination we would grow in relevance, embrace new ideas and methods and open up to honest dialogue that leads to tangible change. Is there hope? I’m holding on! ha.
It is time for our generation to question authority with a greater tenacity while remaining committed to creating culture (as you often talk about). I have noticed that many who post on this blog value authentic living and networking while embracing the spirit of entrepreneurship! I love it. We must champion one another and continue in our individual efforts in building companies, non-profit organizations and ministries. The more we create, the more I believe our voices will be heard. And let the questions continue. (even if it makes the very old school in-laws uncomfortable)
Charles as I read your blog (s) I see someone who is evolving not compromising. I respect your views and appreciate the vulnerability that provides a context for others to open up.
theology of remembrance is just a fancy way of saying that God, throughout salvation history made it almost mandatory for His people to remember how He had revealed Himself through particular events in their history. Apparently, it’s important to God that we NOT forget the expressions of his love and faithfulness. The primary NT example, of course, is the eucharist/communion. But the Old Testament feasts are case in point. Through the feasts, it was built into the fabric of the life of the nation to remember. For me this is significant because I think we’re constantly being told to forget about the past (especially the bad stuff). But a theology of remembrance allows me to remember not only the life-defining ways God clearly met me in the past, but it also allows me to redemptively remember the “events I would rather forget”, and helps me to see even the painful past in light of God’s redeeming love and grace.
The other significant thing for me here is that a theology of remembrance suggests that we don’t have to guess at our future…that the future God has intended for us is best informed by the past…the past that God is and has redeemed, that is.
I can go on…but that should be enough to frame the issue for now.
Thanks Angie for your note and kind words…welcome to my blog space
I really like your thoughts. I too would like to see some tangible changes in our movement. I’m glad to hear that you and your husband are processing some of these thoughts.
Ken, thanks for clarifying…I presumed that you were referring to something similar as mentioned. By the way, glad to see you here.
Wow…great to see you on here Ken.
Hey Admin…you wouldn’t happen to be Charles?
I think charles is a heretic….
Hey Derrick, yes…I’m Admin
Greg, I learned from the best.
Charles…
I fully understand. I struggle, yet love as you do. Thanks for your honesty. It chirps at my soul when I began to complain, but at times that is all I have to do. Grace to my wife. May she have the strength to put up.
I am comforted by the fact that love is always non-denominational.
Blessings
Thanks for your note AJ…glad you see you visiting my blog
hey professor Lee,
.
. Except i
i read your blog for the first time this morning,
wanted to see what all the hype was about
it’s pretty scary that feeling you got huh? kind of like
where am i? like when you wake up on your bed upside
down(maybe that’s just me).
i consider myself a new christian sooo i might not know
what you are going through or went through but… i felt
like this pretty often. i feel like there needs to be something
more all the time. When God doesn’t blow my mind i kind
of get bored…ish. When i go back to churches i used to go
to most of them feel this way and its very discouraging.
I am not really sure how i found comfort though
stopped focusing on others and focused more on God. I
like to be watered and fertilized and taken care of. Which is
what i feel i get from God when i focus on Him all the time. So
when i go to churches i used to go to(now i don’t because i live
on campus) i feel that i’ve grown with God and i feel awkward
because i’m not sure how to relate with people who don’t seem
to have grown in the same direction as me because we didn’t grow
together like we used to. Friends at home and i grew at the same
rate it seemed because we went to the same services, read the same
books, went to the same events. My encouragement is to not worry.
Remember you’re alive, and it’s sunny outside(usually).
There are many who have been searching and feeling like they have a portion of the light but can’t bask in the glory of the whole light. All religions contain some form of this life and most direct people to good. However there is one church that contains all of the light, restored in its fulness. After Christ was crucified and his apostles killed the authority to act in God’s name or priesthood authority was taken from the earth. Christ’s established church was shattered into a million pieces, and churches were created with varies pieces as their foundations. In 1820 a young boy named Joseph Smith also was inquiring as to which of all the churches he should join. At length he decided to ask God which church to join. The answer came in perhaps the most glorious way possible. God the father and his son Jesus Christ appeared to the boy Joseph telling him to join none of the churches but that God had a work for him to do. Joseph Smith became the first prophet of this dispensation. The church Christ established has been restored in its fulness. There is a living prophet today receiving revelation from a loving heavenly father his name is Thomas S. Monson and there are twelve apostles on the earth again. The Book of Mormon is another witness of Jesus Christ, and a record of the ancient inhabitants of America. Those who read this book and pray in sincerity of heart can know by the power of the Holy Ghost that this is truly Christ’s church. I have done this for myself and now know this is true! Come and bask in the fullness of Christ’s light. Read and find out for yourself.
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